Interview with Greg Nelson

The rarely seen Southeast Asian techniques
of the deadly Krabi Krabong

Greg Nelson: Yes, and we’ve had people who have tried it and have lost in nonsense situations where they never would have had to use it. Another avenue, however, is now it’s coming to the point where we are going to have snow and ice on the ground for six months or whatever. Now grappling is a very good thing to think about because if you punch or kick or do anything it is more of a likelihood that you are going to slip or fall to the ground and now you have the ability to know it by a person’s offense at least and that will make a big difference in your self-defense. Another area that I haven’t heard addressed is when you are doing Jiu Jitsu you always are wearing a Gi, which sometimes is a little bit hindering, it hinders your movements. Well that’s exactly the same feeling you are going to have if you are outside in jacket in the winter time; it’s going to constrict your movement. So by doing grappling with the Gi on all the time, you become used to that and therefore you would be able to move better and not feel like you are already tied up because you are used to having a jacket on all the time.

FS: Well that is real interesting….you bring the person’s environment into the fighting situation, and I really haven’t heard anyone talk much about that before. Now you mentioned Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and you were trained by Pedro Sauer and this must have been an incredible honor for you. Can you describe this experience because I understand that you were his first black belt?

Greg Nelson: Yes, I wasn’t his first satellite school, though. I met Professor Pedro Sauer when I was in Virginia Beach at Frank Cucci’s school. Right away I saw that he taught different than the other Brazilians that I practiced with. A lot of the Brazilians would do a move and they would say, that’s perfect, ok you got it, that’s good. So you can walk away and have a lot of mistakes but you never got corrected. The first time I saw Pedro he was demonstrating a move and I did it, and he says okay, we have to stop right here move your hip here, move your foot here, now position your body here, now the technique works! He does that with every move and what he does is personalize the technique to the person’s body structure, their size and obviously their ability to move at different coordination levels. What happens is that he gets down on the ground and actually works with you. This guy is something different; this is definitely different. So I dove headfirst with going into the Jiu Jitsu training and I started wearing a uniform full time. Whereas before I did not. What I think is a little bit better for someone like myself and other people who aren’t directly being taught under him is that when he comes here to do a seminar, we get a certain amount of moves and then that’s what we have for the next few months of practice—just drill those moves over and over and over and over until the next time we get something else. Plus the other training that we have. So by being taught in that manner, it really forces you to go over those moves because you don’t have someone on the outside telling you no, you have to do this or that. So I think it has definitely helped my game by forcing us to really think about and evaluate, take apart every move, and see how we can make it easier. Then Pedro comes back and now here’s 20 counters to those moves, and so then we’d go right back and do the same thing, so he was really awesome in that respect of being taught. In addition to that he is now a 6th degree black belt under Helio and Rickson Gracie, which being directly outside of the Gracie family, I don’t know if there is anybody that high in the world in that rank. There may be, I’m not sure, but who has not grown up in the family…be it cousins or brothers. Getting a belt under him is definitely an honor because he really tries to stick to those techniques you should know and these are the techniques for the next belt that’s what you have to know, etc. If he comes to test you and you don’t have those, he’ll say why don’t you wait another month because you just can’t do the techniques. That makes people like myself train harder. We have to think about those moves constantly: are we doing them correctly? Another thing that was really neat about Professor Sauer is that he is a smaller guy maybe 150-160 pounds. So he had to be technical in training because he was partnering against 200 pound and up opponents, he had to have a better technique because you are not going to be as strong. That has also floated right into our training: the technique that he had, the concentration on form was huge. That crossed over as well. I really make all students think about what they are doing and why they are doing it. Not just doing a move, but showing them why you are doing it and when the right time to do it. That’s how I was taught. You are usually going to teach somewhat like your instructor teaches and Professor Sauer’s is a fantastic role model in that respect. He’s also concerned about the character development, which a lot of different instructors in schools don’t really adhere to. They don’t really care. Some of those people can do the moves pretty good on the ground and be a good grapplers, but then their attitude, moral code isn’t developed. Pedro is trying to bring that back into the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

FS: It’s interesting to hear you talk about the moral and character development, and you obviously feel very strongly about that. I know from talking to your students, they also have spoken very highly of you for instilling in them good moral character. So you are trying not to make them just a better fighter, but a better person all the way around?

Greg Nelson: Yes. I always look at the martial arts like a pyramid. On the very top is the smallest part, and that’s going to be your technique. And that’s also equated to an iceberg; it’s the only thing you see. The next level under that are the attributes. You can’t look at another person and see if they are fast or slow or strong, do they have fantastic timing and endurance because their bodies don’t tell that. You can sometimes guess but that might be a bad thing. Underneath the attributes come training methods. These methods are going to develop the attributes so they are going to make your techniques work. And then underneath training methods are the character qualities of a person: persistence, consistency, hard work ethic, respect, gratitude, the whole focus on concentration, diligence, all those things that really define who you are. If you have developed that foundation (disciple, diligence, persistence, patience, etc.), you will be able to do the training methods and endure the training longer which is going to develop your attributes to a higher level, which is going to make those techniques work more and more. The more time you spend and the more disciplined is going to roll up that pyramid. It will allow you to do your training method more so you can get the same attributes built up even more, and the techniques are going to get sharper and sharper. But still on the top you may not have zillions of techniques, you will still have a lot but what people are going to see more than anything is how you move. How gracefully you move, how much power they see in your motion. I read a quote and it said a master will show himself in everything he does. So when you see a person striking, you’ll see that person moving that stick around so well. Then all of a sudden he’s grappling and you’ll see that person doing that well. But every one of those things took years and years to develop. Without that foundation of character, that’s never going to happen. I asked Guro Dan Inosanto at a seminar many years ago because he shows nice stick and dagger stuff to anybody that comes to the seminar. I said, all these things you are teaching. What if someone who has bad intentions was going to use these techniques? He said, that means that they are going to have train for years and years and years and generally those type of people do not have a defining fine character like that so they don’t develop because they don’t put their time in. Because they basically cheat, they are not disciplined; therefore he can show them stuff because he knows it takes years and years of training to make it work. So he’s not afraid of that happening. The second thing that he said that if a person is going to hurt you, they are going to hurt you whether they know something or not. It doesn't matter because that’s the way they are. So if you show them something they aren’t generally going to do it anyway. They can just pick up a bat and hit you. Because that’s the kind of person they are. If that’s their motivation, they are going to do something pretty drastic because if the person wants to attack them, most likely the majority of them won't have the skill base to stop someone who is trained. Once a person crosses that line, then I would use my martial arts skills. If they attacked my kids, my wife, or someone who cannot defend themselves, I would probably fight them with my self-defense training. But if someone goads me or calls me names, I would say, whatever you’re the toughest guy in the world, that’s fine, I won’t fight you---because I know who I am and how long I’ve trained, what I can do and so I don’t have to show it. Generally the majority is training myself, my character, who I am as far as those qualities I described and martial arts is how I choose to do that. Other people do other sports and whatever. I think martial arts brings out a different quality because it is kind of inherent in all martial arts training to talk about respect and focus, and concentration, all those things. Generally in a lot of sports they don’t talk about that. Usually they say, go practice and wham. So it’s a different mentality as far as martial arts goes.

Greg Nelson drops to the mat where he sets his
opponent up for a sweeping leg takedown

FS: Now do you look to take someone that’s on the wrong path spiritually in your school and to try to develop them morally also?

Greg Nelson: Well, what I do with that is first of all when people come in, I train them in the martial arts. I look at the martial arts like an athlete would look at a sport. In the beginning levels I teach that person the techniques and the training methods to develop their bodies first. Usually if they stay and develop that character to endure and continue to train and what not then the martial arts just by themselves and how you train takes care of that. Now if I have a person who is trained and they are on the wrong side of the path, I kind of give them an alternative. I say if you don’t shape up, you’re gone. I’ll do whatever I can to help you, just ask me. But as far as spirituality goes, everybody knows who I am and what I believe. New people would not but would find out soon enough. Being a believer in Jesus, I kind of try to walk that out more than force that on people. But when a person comes in and knows what I am about and asks me questions, that’s when I bring in the spiritual aspect of things. For me, I don’t really push that on people. They will see by who I am. That’s how I would rather teach a person is by my actions. And then by my actions and how my life is going, then that person would come to me and ask me a question about what I believe and what not. Morally, I try to develop people in that respect. You learn in martial arts self-defense and defending your village or country or whatever, and then what has happened because our society is different. But martial arts have stayed. Some of them have really gotten away from the self-defense aspect of it, and do more tournaments with techniques that don’t necessarily work. But they still are developing people in a way that most of them will have a code of ethics in the school. If you are fighting for no reason and hurting people, stealing, anything like that, pretty much every school is probably for the most part deal with that in a similar fashion. You just don’t do that. If you continue to do it, you won’t be part of the school. So as far as the morals in that respect, that gets played out on the floor a lot. You are developing that respect for people, and you learn to help people and be more of a partner as opposed to being just a me, me, me person. And when people start to get into that environment, that kind of changes them in a lot of ways, they become more people thinking than just myself. I think the martial arts kind of plays that out. When speaking in a class I really don’t bring the spiritual aspect into the classroom. Personally I will. But in schools, I won’t. A lot of fighters I have, they like to pray before they fight. We always do that before we fight. Basically that is prayer for safety for both fighters and no one gets hurt, you’ll be able to use your God-given talents to their fullest, and whatever happens, happens. We don’t pray for victory and to be able to dominate my partner. That’s not what it is about. I think if you keep a clean heart and are disciplined in your moral ethical code, that’s just going to bring your martial arts up that much higher because you won’t be inclined to cheat on repetitions. You will try to push yourself when someone tells you to do something and not try to slide out of it. The martial arts really does that.

FS: You talked about unity, how your students seems to work together and try to develop one another and I’m actually seeing that just by being around here that you’ve got people from different disciplines that are training underneath you that are working together and trying to make not only themselves better but the people that are working with them, the other students they are trying to improve their skills as well. You can really see that when you come to this school.

Greg Nelson: That’s one of our sayings here is, coming off the jungle book, the strength of the pack is in the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is in the pack. That’s one of our little creeds that we develop because if an individual is going to get better, the people that he associates with and trains with will also get better and better. If everyone is getting better then each individual is going to get sucked into that mode of training of working hard. That’s exactly what happens. The strength of a student is really predicated upon how good the classroom is and the classroom is going to be defined on how each individual is trying to help and work with his partner and work hard himself so that really it’s a big part of our training here. We really try to develop that attitude in people.

FS: I think some of the strengths in your teaching skills are really shown in the number of top students, top fighters around the world that you are presently training right now. I’m looking at a list here and we have people like Sean Sherk, James Cook, John Renken, Tom Schmitz, Nat McIntyre, Dave Menne, Brad Kohler. This is a huge list of people that are at the top of their field, and they are all coming out of this school, and you really don’t see this kind of thing that often, especially with such a mixed variety of martial arts.

Greg Nelson: At times what you do find is if there is a group of people that excel, it’s usually in the same thing. Like a no holds barred school, so they develop in that arena. Or if it is Thai Boxing, they develop in that arena. But we bring everybody up to that level. We have guys that are world ranked in no holds barred, we’ve got fighters who are top fighters in the US in Thai Boxing, and they are doing two totally different arts, even two different ways of training. So I’ve tried to pass that along to the people that teach and they have developed and brought their own aspect and mentality of how things should be done into the mix as well. So they are able to take a group and build that group us and they don’t need me to be sitting around to manage them. That’s kind of the environment I really like to have is people develop where they themselves through training and through work become trainers themselves. That is usually what has happened. That’s big for me in teamwork. Right away the first day you are here you are holding pads for people. So you learn right away how to kick and punch and hit the pads, but you are immediately shown how to train people also, which is a huge part of it. That’s how people are also tested in that way. That’s again to turn people not only students but they become teachers as well. That’s one thing if you have a triangle you have student, fighter, teacher. My goal if I could do that would be to develop every one of those people to be a student for the rest of their lives—always searching, seeking out new ways to do things, that perpetual kindergartner: everything is new! It would be great to have a group of people like that. Then those people would be able to apply what they know. When I say fighter, I don’t mean that they are always in the ring and fighting, but in the classroom they can really apply what they have learned. Whether it be sparring or live grappling or whatever, they learn enough in the group. Thirdly is the teacher. Not only can they do the skills and perform them, but they can go to another person and teach them. That’s a huge thing to be able to teach people in front of a classroom to do certain techniques because you have to know how to show it and know how to explain it, what is the motivation, what is going to make people want to do this. In there, you’re going to have different people. Some people have to be shown things, some have to be told things, some have to have things done to them before they realize it. So teaching is not an easy task and being a fighter is not either. So all the time, no matter what they are doing—fighting, teaching—they are always training to help other people because they know if I don’t train the people in front of me, they are not going to be good enough to bring you to that next level. So everybody here is about bringing everybody up to that level. Of course, you are going to have a few people that excel out of the group. We’ve been very fortunate to have a great group of guys come through here that have those qualities. Some have left to do their own thing and build their own schools. My hope is that they will be able to do the same things in their own schools, to have the desire to develop people to teach as well as just do. That’s a hard thing to do I think. It’s easy to teach fighters how to fight if they are an athlete. But to bring a person who really doesn’t have a lot of skill and to get them to be able to spar and keep up with other people, that I think is a much greater triumph.